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Level Skipping, is it fair?


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#26 Zephyr

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 07:20 PM

And I see you've skipped 3/10 so far. I don't really blame you if those 3 were Magic Duplicates. :P


I can deal with arrow magic if they have bombs. If they don't, it sends shivers up my spine.

You'll hate Saracen and King then lol. ;)

#27 xDarkAnsem

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 07:33 PM

I'm guessing it wasn't intended, but at the same time I don't really think it matters. If people really want to skip part of the game they bought, so be it, it's their loss.


The thing is, is that does matter to some people, and I'm kind of on their side with this. People who don't level skip works their butt off to get a gold skull. Then someone comes and plays 3/4 of insane to get a gold skull?

#28 Hoboking257

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 01:52 AM

I had no idea you could even skip levels :? in insane mode or anywhere else for that matter! Even if I could skip levels I probably would still have a hard time in insane mode with level 30 characters lol :P

#29 The Forgotten Knight

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 04:27 AM

Ahem,

I spent over a year deciphering the level skip process. I didn't spend all that time not to use it. The main reason I started to learn it was because at first I thought the game was broken. Then I learned that it would only save after certain points. I was extremely upset when I found out that this was intentional and that the game would not save after I spent an hour beating one level but that it wanted me to spend another 2+ hours beating two more levels for the section to save.

Back then the multiplayer connections were utterly utrocious to the point it boggled comprehension. I mean waiting 30 min on average in order to connect to someone and then the entire game dropping if one person left. And that's not even taking into account the lag. Take all these factors and for someone whose not able to solo insane mode, getting a gold skull was next to impossible. Not to mention the data load glitch was still around.

This was back before any combo guides were posted and you had to be taught by someone willing to teach you in Arena. Back when there was only a handful of people who could juggle. Even then most were'nt skilled enough to do insane mode.

You can argue about the legitamecy or fairness of level skipping but when I originally posted my guide, insane mode was much harder due to a number of contributing factors besides enemy difficulty. I am happy to say that most of these problems have since been fixed in patches over the years.

My opinion is this: What's the point of beating a level if the game gives you no credit for it?

Maybe it's because I'm a bit biased but I've put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears (yes actual blood) into writing my guide. If you look at the post for it you can see that I've edited it over 30 times. The reason being because even after I came out with it here on the forums I still didn't have all the facts right. With the help of others over the course of another year I was able to discover why there were so many consistancy errors and give you the final product we have today.

I worked my damned balloon off making that guide, I've met a lot of people around the world because of it, and I've made a lot of friends in the process. I even met my ex-girlfriend while working on the guide. She was a die hard CC player too. I got to fly to New York City and have one of the best times of my life because of this game.

I want people to use my guide. What pride I have as a gamer has gone into it along with my love for the game. Level skipping is Legit because I made it so with numbers 1, 2, 4, and 5.

http://dictionary.re...owse/legitimate

le·git·i·mate
   [adj., n. li-jit-uh-mit; v. li-jit-uh-meyt] Show IPA adjective, verb, -mat·ed, -mat·ing, noun

adjective
1.
according to law; lawful: the property's legitimate owner.

2.
in accordance with established rules, principles, or standards.

3.
born in wedlock or of legally married parents: legitimate children.

4.
in accordance with the laws of reasoning; logically inferable; logical: a legitimate conclusion.

5.
resting on or ruling by the principle of hereditary right: a legitimate sovereign.


1.) I own the guide. No one else can take credit for it's creation.

2.) No one in the Behemoth has deemed it unfair or in violation of the game's rules.

4.) The guide will get you a gold skull, I promise you that.

5.) It is might right to share my knowledge with the rest of the community.



:arrow: -TFK

#30 xDarkAnsem

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 03:39 PM

My opinion is this: What's the point of beating a level if the game gives you no credit for it?


Self pride and legitimacy.

#31 The Forgotten Knight

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 04:06 PM

My opinion is this: What's the point of beating a level if the game gives you no credit for it?


Self pride and legitimacy.


I already stated what I need to about legitimacy for a Gold Skull but as for self pride that comes from the individual. The overall goal for beating insane mode is to earn the Gold Skull, why should anyone have to worry about working unnecessarily on objectives that count nothing towards that goal? The only way to defeat level skipping would be to make the game save after every level like normal mode. I wouldn't have a problem with that because then the game would be giving you credit for your effort.

I don't level skip, and I don't like it; but I'm not going to stop others from doing it. Honestly I probably shouldn't be contributing to this as we don't need any more rifts in our already small community.


I don't see discussing different methodologies of the game as causing a rift if everyone remains civil. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The overall purpose is to have fun. I'd much rather be discussing the finer points of gaming than dealing with what was originally the main topics of concern way back in the early days; glitches, hacks, and imaginary DLC. It's nice to have threads about something that isn't a problem in the game.

#32 xDarkAnsem

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 04:20 PM

Well I said in a few posts somewhere, that I believe it is fine in moderation. However I recall Half telling me that you hadn't ever beaten the necromancer until he helped.

So here's my opinion: Why should someone get a gold skull if they have only completed 3/4 of the game?

#33 The Forgotten Knight

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 05:40 PM

Because only 3/4 of the game counts towards a gold skull. As for the Necromancer, no I had not been able to beat him until I played with Halfcoordinated. Until then he was the only boss I had not been able to defeat on insane. Most players have difficutly fighting him in multiplayer because the enemies health increases based on how many players there are as well as their numbers. I never recall stating I had beaten him before nor have I tried to hide that fact.

#34 halfcoordinated

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:35 AM

Actually the enemy waves for necromancer are always the same, no matter how many people are playing. Only the necromancer's own health increases, which really doesn't matter since you've basically won by the time he drops down.

I should point out that I don't believe that it was my help in particular that got us through necro that time (although technically they were helping ME get my blacksmith gold skulled). It was more of the fact that there were four people that had a decent understanding of the game. Necro is always easier with people.

#35 Zephyr

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 11:15 PM

Actually the enemy waves for necromancer are always the same, no matter how many people are playing. Only the necromancer's own health increases, which really doesn't matter since you've basically won by the time he drops down.

I should point out that I don't believe that it was my help in particular that got us through necro that time (although technically they were helping ME get my blacksmith gold skulled). It was more of the fact that there were four people that had a decent understanding of the game. Necro is always easier with people.

I was about to write out that first paragraph yesterday morning, but my internet connection failed on me...

I already stated what I need to about legitimacy for a Gold Skull but as for self pride that comes from the individual. The overall goal for beating insane mode is to earn the Gold Skull, why should anyone have to worry about working unnecessarily on objectives that count nothing towards that goal? The only way to defeat level skipping would be to make the game save after every level like normal mode. I wouldn't have a problem with that because then the game would be giving you credit for your effort.

The funniest thing about that red sentence is that the guide works for Normal Mode, too. In fact, some of the unskippable levels you stated in your guide are actually skippable.
Believe me, I did a lot of testing with one of my reset characters. What I laugh at is how I only needed to reset one character to know that your level skipping guide isn't 100% accurate. What took you a year or two to make, took me an hour to prove 60% of your info false! :D


Besides, those levels aren't there just to look at. Dan didn't make Full Moon, Marsh, and Desert just for you to skip them. If there is something that must be completed solo, it should surely be completed with 2+ players, no matter how the game saves.

The game should be played, not skipped. What's the point of a game if you skip half of it's action and all of it's difficult levels? There's really no point in buying any games if that's all you'll do.

#36 T Diamond

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:30 AM

My opinion is this: What's the point of beating a level if the game gives you no credit for it?


Self pride and legitimacy.

If it only gives self pride why does anyone care if someone else uses it?

#37 T Diamond

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:50 AM

The game should be played, not skipped. What's the point of a game if you skip half of it's action and all of it's difficult levels? There's really no point in buying any games if that's all you'll do.

What's the point in caring what others do with something they purchased. If they want to buy the game, play it to watch the opening dance scene once and never play the game again, that's their choice.
People are not trying buying/playing this game to impress everyone. Its so they can enjoy it, and they should be allowed to do whatever they want with it as long as it: doesn't hurt others, and doesn't break the terms of use.
Some people will skip levels to get the gold skull. So what? How does that affect anyone else at all? People care way too much about what others think and do.

Maybe I'm over ranting, but if people thought this way i think a lot less petty fighting about ethics would end here.
And I'm not picking on you specifically, ZephyrX02 ^^, I'm just using you as an example.

#38 gettinmoney662

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:38 AM

The game should be played, not skipped. What's the point of a game if you skip half of it's action and all of it's difficult levels? There's really no point in buying any games if that's all you'll do.

What's the point in caring what others do with something they purchased. If they want to buy the game, play it to watch the opening dance scene once and never play the game again, that's their choice.
People are not trying buying/playing this game to impress everyone. Its so they can enjoy it, and they should be allowed to do whatever they want with it as long as it: doesn't hurt others, and doesn't break the terms of use.
Some people will skip levels to get the gold skull. So what? How does that affect anyone else at all? People care way too much about what others think and do.

Maybe I'm over ranting, but if people thought this way i think a lot less petty fighting about ethics would end here.
And I'm not picking on you specifically, ZephyrX02 ^^, I'm just using you as an example.


I always see this argument when something like this comes up for debate. No one really cares deep down if people level skip or not, just most people acknowledge that you aren't really "earning" a gold skull if you're skipping 1/4 of the game and that 1/4 of the game consists of some of the hardest levels. People on this site aren't logging off and dwelling on how people level skip and getting super pissed about it.

People also might have a problem with people bragging about how many gold skulls they have when they level skipped for all or a majority of them (ie: Forgotten Knight, who just admitted to never beating Necromancer on Insane until he played with half on here). If they're not doing it to impress people, why have that in their sig?

And, if you want to know how it affects other people, it cheapens the achievement. People will likely just assume someone who beat Insane Mode level skipped since so many people beat it that way.

#39 Blacksmΐth

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:48 AM

The game should be played, not skipped. What's the point of a game if you skip half of it's action and all of it's difficult levels? There's really no point in buying any games if that's all you'll do.

What's the point in caring what others do with something they purchased. If they want to buy the game, play it to watch the opening dance scene once and never play the game again, that's their choice.
People are not trying buying/playing this game to impress everyone. Its so they can enjoy it, and they should be allowed to do whatever they want with it as long as it: doesn't hurt others, and doesn't break the terms of use.
Some people will skip levels to get the gold skull. So what? How does that affect anyone else at all? People care way too much about what others think and do.

Maybe I'm over ranting, but if people thought this way i think a lot less petty fighting about ethics would end here.
And I'm not picking on you specifically, ZephyrX02 ^^, I'm just using you as an example.


I always see this argument when something like this comes up for debate. No one really cares deep down if people level skip or not, just most people acknowledge that you aren't really "earning" a gold skull if you're skipping 1/4 of the game and that 1/4 of the game consists of some of the hardest levels. People on this site aren't logging off and dwelling on how people level skip and getting super pissed about it.

People also might have a problem with people bragging about how many gold skulls they have when they level skipped for all or a majority of them (ie: Forgotten Knight, who just admitted to never beating Necromancer on Insane until he played with half on here). If they're not doing it to impress people, why have that in their sig?

And, if you want to know how it affects other people, it cheapens the achievement. People will likely just assume someone who beat Insane Mode level skipped since so many people beat it that way.

I side with everything you're saying, but the XBLA version doesn't have the Insane Mode achievement like PSN does.

#40 xDarkAnsem

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 02:13 AM

What Blacksmith said.

Ok then, people will think whoever has a gold skull level skipped because everyone does it. Not a big difference.

#41 Zephyr

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 03:56 AM

What Blacksmith said.

Ok then, people will think whoever has a gold skull level skipped because everyone does it. Not a big difference.

Are you be callingeth my skull of the gold a hoaxeth?

#42 xDarkAnsem

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:00 AM

What Blacksmith said.

Ok then, people will think whoever has a gold skull level skipped because everyone does it. Not a big difference.

Are you be callingeth my skull of the gold a hoaxeth?

No, I'm explaining gettinmoney's point. Blacksmith is saying it's different because Xbox doesn't have an achievement for insane, I'm saying it's not.

#43 Zephyr

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:09 AM

No, I'm explaining gettinmoney's point. Blacksmith is saying it's different because Xbox doesn't have an achievement for insane, I'm saying it's not.

I think Blacksmith was just clarifying the fact that XBLA doesn't have the Insane Mode achievement, but I could be wrong... Just saying, I know him very well. :P

#44 gettinmoney662

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:22 AM

I was referring to the achievement of beating Insane, which is represented by the gold skull. I wasn't talking about trophies/achievements.

#45 xDarkAnsem

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 12:19 PM

I was referring to the achievement of beating Insane, which is represented by the gold skull. I wasn't talking about trophies/achievements.

And my point is proven...

#46 Zephyr

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 01:27 AM

I was referring to the achievement of beating Insane, which is represented by the gold skull. I wasn't talking about trophies/achievements.

And my point is proven...

I guess I misunderstood both you and Blacksmith then... :|

#47 De_Regelaar

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 09:04 AM

Btw, when i was playing full moon for the first time on insane mode yesterday, i really got no problem finishing it. I only died once and than i got it. Nice level for insane mode though and it takes a long time to kill those armoured soldiers. Is this level considered so hard because you cant juggle them?
Anyway, i am very excited to finish off the game on insane mode.

ps: the ICE-boss is such a boring fight on insane mode. It takes forever to love him up. Long live YETI, its easy to beat this level.

T

#48 T Diamond

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 07:18 AM

Btw, when i was playing full moon for the first time on insane mode yesterday, i really got no problem finishing it. I only died once and than i got it. Nice level for insane mode though and it takes a long time to kill those armoured soldiers. Is this level considered so hard because you cant juggle them?
Anyway, i am very excited to finish off the game on insane mode.

ps: the ICE-boss is such a boring fight on insane mode. It takes forever to love him up. Long live YETI, its easy to beat this level.

T

Technically it is possible to juggle them using an ice XXXY,XXXY and maybe arrow infiniting (although I haven't been able to test it on Full Moon yet).
Also I believe its considered more annoying than hard. Most good players can beat it, it just takes a while.

#49 Jordio99

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 10:22 PM

...the game isn't perfect.

Name a game that is.

chess.


You got a point. :lol:

#50 De_Regelaar

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:11 AM

[/quote]
Technically it is possible to juggle them using an ice XXXY,XXXY and maybe arrow infiniting (although I haven't been able to test it on Full Moon yet).[/quote]


Jup, thats the combo i used. I hate arrow spamming though, i dont use that. Thats just pressing a buttom a fast as possible.




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