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Juggling, is it fair?

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Just for the sake of reiteration, my opinion:

Juggling is fair, as it's available to both parties, but given the choice between playing with or without it, I would prefer it if multiplayer didn't have it. It makes things way too competitive; it's a one-and-done fighting style.

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Just for the sake of reiteration, my opinion:

Juggling is fair, as it's available to both parties, but given the choice between playing with or without it, I would prefer it if multiplayer didn't have it. It makes things way too competitive; it's a one-and-done fighting style.

I commend you for recognizing the difference between liking something and it being fair. That is an important difference that many have trouble seeing.

I know how to juggle and I think it's unfair. :|

I should have tried to address this long ago, but I had to look back to the first page to see your reasoning; which was that juggling is a replacement to the combat system. I can understand that and see why you might not like it. However, that again goes to not liking it... not if the tactic itself is unfair.

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I'll be happy when the pink knight comes out because I'll get the pink knight and maybe the update to the increased gravity of arena to get rid of the unfair juggling.

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I find it amusing this topic has gone on for as long as it has. Its a major mechanic of the game, don't like it, you have to deal with it. Period.

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reminds me of the day when i used to get hammered on tekken3 on ps1 by my girlfriends kids.then i learnt the art of air combos,then i hammered them,then all i got was " thats not fair, thats cheating, wah wah not playin with you no more". how i laughed!

then i went to a live t3 tournament held in london,and what did i see...air combos,air combos,air combos. thats how top players play.and its copy n paste to cc. "is juggling fair?" is the dumbest thing i've ever seen on this forum.

"OK DUDE,LET'S HAVE A DUEL.BUT YOU CAN'T USE THAT MOVE 'COS IT'S NOT FAIR". Does that sound right to you? seriously?

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Fair or not, I'd say it makes for pretty lousy gameplay. Unless you find some sort of strange amusement in being held in the air for several seconds at a time as your health is continuously depleted while no possible input on your part can do anything about it. :|

If you're going to decide a match by a single move, you might as well play rock-paper-scissors.

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Since u guys like to complain about this for so long:

POST A VIDEO OF WHAT U THINK IS A "FAIR" MATCH!

And im pretty sure NO ONE can or even WOULD do it

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Since u guys like to complain about this for so long:

POST A VIDEO OF WHAT U THINK IS A "FAIR" MATCH!

And im pretty sure NO ONE can or even WOULD do it

That doesn't make much sense.

What I believe to be a 'fair' match would be a match without juggling. It can't be that hard to picture, I don't see why a video would be necessary. Especially since you're all going along with this idea that juggling is a super-hard skill that takes intense practice. And why wouldn't people do it? Having an actual battle with a variety of attacks sounds like tons more fun than a combo-spamming contest. The only reason people don't is because they're to concerned with competition, along with their leaderboard scores.

And it's not as much juggling being fair or unfair, it just makes the rest of the attacks (along with magic) pretty useless. When I first played the game online I didn't expect online matches to be centered around one combo.

I... I'm still having trouble understanding where a video would belong into this mix.

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I don't think that juggling, by its nature, is a gamekiller. I just think it has the potential to be. Which is my problem with it. It's a mechanic where, to me, the better you get at it, the higher the stakes get, and the less fun the game becomes. Get two jugglers who are good enough at it in the ring together and the match will be decided in one or two strikes - which, again, leads to my rock-paper-scissors analogy. Most people don't reach any such pinnacle, but it has the POTENTIAL to drag out long enough to drain an entire health bar.

If there were a cut-off point of some kind, making juggling a powerful combo, but not one with god potential - such as slightly increased gravity (not to a Stoveface degree or anything) - I think it would make for a perfect game mechanic. I think it's suited for a dominant aspect of competitive gameplay. It just shouldn't inherently decide every single match without exception - that's just boring. =/

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What I believe to be a 'fair' match would be a match without juggling. It can't be that hard to picture, I don't see why a video would be necessary. Especially since you're all going along with this idea that juggling is a super-hard skill that takes intense practice. And why wouldn't people do it? Having an actual battle with a variety of attacks sounds like tons more fun than a combo-spamming contest. The only reason people don't is because they're to concerned with competition, along with their leaderboard scores.

And it's not as much juggling being fair or unfair, it just makes the rest of the attacks (along with magic) pretty useless. When I first played the game online I didn't expect online matches to be centered around one combo.

I still don't see why your being so narrow minded about this. As I and many other people have said multiple times, we're not supporting juggling because it's a 'super-hard skill'. Many people don't find a great deal of fun being smacked around while knowing it can be prevented, so a jugglers view of competition I would find more of an advancement than a concern. Juggling uses the most effective moves in the game, instead of the ineffective ones. I wouldn't look at juggler's as people who abuse the game in order to reach a higher placement on the leaderboards, but instead people who've learned a more effective fighting method and would rather win a game through a line of experience than using unhelpful attacks.

Again, I'm still having a hard time understanding why your so unwilling to change your mind on this subject. Your entitled to your own opinion, but I would at least like you to know that your opinion is ignorant and centered around the thought of jugglers as over-competitive players desperate for attention.

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Again, I'm still having a hard time understanding why your so unwilling to change your mind on this subject. Your entitled to your own opinion, but I would at least like you to know that your opinion is ignorant and centered around the thought of jugglers as over-competitive players desperate for attention.

Those were some un-cleverly disguised insults. =/

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I still don't see why your being so narrow minded about this. As I and many other people have said multiple times, we're not supporting juggling because it's a 'super-hard skill'. Many people don't find a great deal of fun being smacked around while knowing it can be prevented, so a jugglers view of competition I would find more of an advancement than a concern. Juggling uses the most effective moves in the game, instead of the ineffective ones. I wouldn't look at juggler's as people who abuse the game in order to reach a higher placement on the leaderboards, but instead people who've learned a more effective fighting method and would rather win a game through a line of experience than using unhelpful attacks.

Again, I'm still having a hard time understanding why your so unwilling to change your mind on this subject. Your entitled to your own opinion, but I would at least like you to know that your opinion is ignorant and centered around the thought of jugglers as over-competitive players desperate for attention.

Well, first of all, being narrow-minded means that you're biased or closed towards other opinions. Calling someone's opinion ignorant is a little bit completely an example of that. Either way, I'm not sure what the point is with all this hostility. I hardly ever post here, and my points were plenty valid. Oh, and let's not forget that Dan himself said that he'd like to add more gravity to juggled players, I don't see how my opinion in particular should be considered ignorant.

Anyways, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I'm not against jugglers, and I didn't say they were abusing the game by juggling. I'm saying that they're only juggling because they're concerned with their leaderboard scores, which is clearly true. If you don't juggle, you don't have a chance at the leaderboards because, like you said before, the rest of the attacks won't help you at all. That's why I want it out of the game.

Hmm? Magic is extremely important in most matches I've played.

Yes, as a method to avoid/set juggles, not as an attack.

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I still don't see why your being so narrow minded about this. As I and many other people have said multiple times, we're not supporting juggling because it's a 'super-hard skill'. Many people don't find a great deal of fun being smacked around while knowing it can be prevented, so a jugglers view of competition I would find more of an advancement than a concern. Juggling uses the most effective moves in the game, instead of the ineffective ones. I wouldn't look at juggler's as people who abuse the game in order to reach a higher placement on the leaderboards, but instead people who've learned a more effective fighting method and would rather win a game through a line of experience than using unhelpful attacks.

Again, I'm still having a hard time understanding why your so unwilling to change your mind on this subject. Your entitled to your own opinion, but I would at least like you to know that your opinion is ignorant and centered around the thought of jugglers as over-competitive players desperate for attention.

Well, first of all, being narrow-minded means that you're biased or closed towards other opinions. Calling someone's opinion ignorant is a little bit completely an example of that. Either way, I'm not sure what the point is with all this hostility. I hardly ever post here, and my points were plenty valid. Oh, and let's not forget that Dan himself said that he'd like to add more gravity to juggled players, I don't see how my opinion in particular should be considered ignorant.

Anyways, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I'm not against jugglers, and I didn't say they were abusing the game by juggling. I'm saying that they're only juggling because they're concerned with their leaderboard scores, which is clearly true. If you don't juggle, you don't have a chance at the leaderboards because, like you said before, the rest of the attacks won't help you at all. That's why I want it out of the game.

Hmm? Magic is extremely important in most matches I've played.

Yes, as a method to avoid/set juggles, not as an attack.

I didn't try to come off as hostile in the first place. I used the term ignorant because it seems as though whenever someone gives a valid reason for why jugglings an acceptable addition to the game, you seem to just avoid the topic and move back to the beginning of the circle.

Your assuming that jugglers are only concerned with leaderboard scores, which is just a broad stereotype. I'm not sure if you misunderstood me, but I've already given my reasons as to why jugglers juggle in the first place. Jugglers don't use the rest of the ineffective attacks because their easy to counter. Like I said, nobody wants to be knocked back by their own attack backfiring, so they use more effective attacks. All jugglers are doing it increasing the length of the skillgap, and it seems to me that people like you are just unwilling to accept that.

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I didn't try to come off as hostile in the first place. I used the term ignorant because it seems as though whenever someone gives a valid reason for why jugglings an acceptable addition to the game, you seem to just avoid the topic and move back to the beginning of the circle.

I hardly ever post here, though. Even if I was making the worst points in the world, I don't see how my posts would be any different from the occasional "AYE THINK JUGGLING IS FAIR BECAUSE I LIKE IT" or "I HATE JUGGLING BECAUSE I'M BAD AT IT" posts. I do check back on this thread, but I only skim it for insults and spam so that I can throw warnings at people. I don't pay as much attention to the actual conversation simply because I'm tired of arguing this same topic so frequently. And what valid reason did I avoid, exactly? I was replying to True213. My post was a counterargument to what he said, not to what everybody said. I haven't fully read the other posts, I don't care nearly as much about the debate anymore.

Your assuming that jugglers are only concerned with leaderboard scores, which is just a broad stereotype. I'm not sure if you misunderstood me, but I've already given my reasons as to why jugglers juggle in the first place. Jugglers don't use the rest of the ineffective attacks because their easy to counter. Like I said, nobody wants to be knocked back by their own attack backfiring, so they use more effective attacks. All jugglers are doing it increasing the length of the skillgap, and it seems to me that people like you are just unwilling to accept that.

Why would a gamer trying to get to the top of the leaderboards be a broad stereotype? They do it for leaderboard scores, there's simply no other reason to do it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing that they juggle for their leaderboard scores, it's a leaderboard. People try to get to the top. It's competition. I don't see why there would be anything wrong with that. I do it, you do it, we all do it. It's a leaderboard score. It's a highscore table. That's just how it works.

All jugglers are doing it increasing the length of the skillgap,
Also, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. You might have accidentally a couple words.

Like I said before, I don't have anything against jugglers. I don't care about them. My argument is that juggling should be removed from Castle Crashers, not that jugglers should be burned at a stake. And yes, like I agreed with you earlier, people juggle because the rest of the attacks are ineffective and unhelpful. At no point did I disagree with that. I want juggling removed because I'd like to have a battle where these ineffective and unhelpful attacks aren't ineffective and unhelpful. I'd like a battle where the attacks do more than just help you juggle or avoid juggles. Personally, I think the battles would more varied and more fun. More varied because there would be other tactics and strategies available, and every attack would serve multiple purposes (as opposed to a juggle assist). More fun because it wouldn't just be a wild goose chase followed by a one-sided juggle followed by more wild goose chase followed by more one-sided juggle followed by lather rinse repeat until the battle is over.

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I didn't try to come off as hostile in the first place. I used the term ignorant because it seems as though whenever someone gives a valid reason for why jugglings an acceptable addition to the game, you seem to just avoid the topic and move back to the beginning of the circle.

I hardly ever post here, though. Even if I was making the worst points in the world, I don't see how my posts would be any different from the occasional "AYE THINK JUGGLING IS FAIR BECAUSE I LIKE IT" or "I HATE JUGGLING BECAUSE I'M BAD AT IT" posts. I do check back on this thread, but I only skim it for insults and spam so that I can throw warnings at people. I don't pay as much attention to the actual conversation simply because I'm tired of arguing this same topic so frequently. And what valid reason did I avoid, exactly? I was replying to True213. My post was a counterargument to what he said, not to what everybody said. I haven't fully read the other posts, I don't care nearly as much about the debate anymore.

I never insisted that you were reading through the entire debate. I haven't been either. However, I expected you to stop and think from different perspectives on your reasoning. I just don't understand why you would lay down your opinion on the table if your not willing to change your mind. It's obvious that not many people are putting much thought into this debate, but I would expect you not to contribute if your going to just be as selfish as everyone else contributing.

Your assuming that jugglers are only concerned with leaderboard scores, which is just a broad stereotype. I'm not sure if you misunderstood me, but I've already given my reasons as to why jugglers juggle in the first place. Jugglers don't use the rest of the ineffective attacks because their easy to counter. Like I said, nobody wants to be knocked back by their own attack backfiring, so they use more effective attacks. All jugglers are doing it increasing the length of the skillgap, and it seems to me that people like you are just unwilling to accept that.

Why would a gamer trying to get to the top of the leaderboards be a broad stereotype? They do it for leaderboard scores, there's simply no other reason to do it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing that they juggle for their leaderboard scores, it's a leaderboard. People try to get to the top. It's competition. I don't see why there would be anything wrong with that. I do it, you do it, we all do it. It's a leaderboard score. It's a highscore table. That's just how it works.

I understand what you mean about the whole leaderboard thing. Many people do just care about the leaderboards for the sake of competetoin. All I'm trying to say is that competetion is very fun for many players.

All jugglers are doing it increasing the length of the skillgap,
Also, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. You might have accidentally a couple words.

Like I said before, I don't have anything against jugglers. I don't care about them. My argument is that juggling should be removed from Castle Crashers, not that jugglers should be burned at a stake. And yes, like I agreed with you earlier, people juggle because the rest of the attacks are ineffective and unhelpful. At no point did I disagree with that. I want juggling removed because I'd like to have a battle where these ineffective and unhelpful attacks aren't ineffective and unhelpful. I'd like a battle where the attacks do more than just help you juggle or avoid juggles. Personally, I think the battles would more varied and more fun. More varied because there would be other tactics and strategies available, and every attack would serve multiple purposes (as opposed to a juggle assist). More fun because it wouldn't just be a wild goose chase followed by a one-sided juggle followed by more wild goose chase followed by more one-sided juggle followed by lather rinse repeat until the battle is over.

I figured that you were against jugglers alltogether. Sorry for that mistake, your just against juggling itself. I understand your argument on why you would like more tactics and longer battles, and that's completely your opinion on why you want juggling removed. I'm trying to tell you that people who do juggle have the opposite opinion, and find the game fun and replayable as it is.

I understand why your opinion is the way it is, but I'm just trying to stand up for the people who respectfully disagree with you.

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And people who think it's fun the way it is can play some rock-paper-scissors just as easily.

I'm not sure that the people you're defending know exactly why they themselves like it. Only that they like it, and they don't like people changing what they like. I think they like the competition. And I think that they feel threatened by the idea of being a smaller player when the imbalanced game mechanic that they've been taking advantage of for so long is appropriated. Kind of like if a community in a fighting game revolves entirely around a single overpowered character, a sequel comes out, all of the characters are remade to be balanced, and everyone complains because they can't abuse that one character to feel as big anymore. Because they don't want to adapt to fair play.

Basically, juggling is Sentinel.

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Eh, yeah, Sentinel's an exaggeration. I just think people's complaining about him is amusing.

I agree with Sushi. It's not that they're useless - it's that all other forms of attack pale compared to the damage potential of juggling. Balance is nonexistent - other moves don't even exist to COMPLEMENT juggling. Just to start it. If you could only juggle someone so much, they would complement it, and juggling would still be the dominant aspect of gameplay. The problem is that the entire game mechanic REVOLVES around a single move, a single pattern, and a single strategy. It leaves the player with two and only two options: Be an individual, or be a winner.

If I'm wrong, then tell me, what exactly would come harm from the gravity being increased just enough to make limitless juggling impossible? I think my "people getting used to abusing an imbalanced game mechanic and then complaining when it's evened out because they don't feel as good anymore" example is a perfect analogy.

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Oh sorry, I didn't realize you had your own definition of what an attack was. It doesn't matter if the way you want it to be is for magic to just hurt someone and that's it, no follow up of any kind, just hit them with magic run away and do something else. If magic has another role then that doesn't mean it isn't an attack anymore. Nothing is made useless like you believe in the current competitive match besides maybe arrows.

We don't need any nitpicking on the definition of attack, you clearly know what I meant.

At least using magic only to hurt somebody gives you an option that doesn't involve juggling. I didn't even say magic should only be used as an attack, I said magic should be used as an attack. Never used the word 'only,' you see. Of course I'd expect magic to be used throughout several tactics and strategies, not just as an HP lowerererer. My point is that magic should be used for more than just a juggle-assist, not that magic should be used for nothing but hitting people and running away.

And, well, gee, I know you guys hate it when I bring this same argument up over and over, but it seems pretty effective since none of you ever reply to it. Dan Paladin said that he'd like to bring more magic into play, it probably doesn't have such a perfectly dandy role like you've made it out to be.

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I don't even remember you mentioning this before so I'm not sure what's with the condescending mood in the first sentence >_>. When did Dan say this again? I don't doubt you but I'd like to see the full context of this. I don't really know what you mean by "perfectly dandy role" either. I mean, I wouldn't mind if he brought more magic into play. Not sure where you're going with this.

Admittedly, I wasn't necessarily referring to you. I just really like sugar-coating my arguments with crazy little Dr. Coxian splatters like that.

Anyways, here's the post I was referring to:

viewtopic.php?p=282448#p282448

My bad, probably shoulda linked it before.

Well, I'm done here for now. Like I've said before, I get kinda bored with this subject pretty quickly. I might post a few more quick blurbs or reply to any posts directed towards me, but that's about it for a while.

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Dan Paladin said that he'd like to bring more magic into play

Erm, so this is a typo then right? Because there's definitely no magic being talked about by Dan >_>

Nah, it's there. Last sentence of the fourth paragraph.

i'd like to see if i can bring more magic into play.

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And, well, gee, I know you guys hate it when I bring this same argument up over and over, but it seems pretty effective since none of you ever reply to it.

I've replied to all of your arguments numerous times. You obviously aren't paying too much attention then.

And Lyonidus, please if your not going to use any thought in your arguments whatsoever don't post. So far every paragraph I've read from you has been so idiotic and unhelpful that your just spiraling this thread back around into circles, and the fact that you don't even realize it quite frankly is pissing me off.

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Well firstly, the way it is now juggling isn't exactly "limitless" but that may just be another exaggeration. The thing is that juggling, as said earlier, increases the skill gap. That should be welcome to most competitive communities. And like I said before, not all players even care all that much if that happens so obviously everybody's not just scared they won't be good. As it is now it'd just be pointless to turn off the interest of some the most active participants of a mostly dead online mode and frankly it's time wasted when Dan or whoever has bigger things to work on anyway.

You seem to care quite a bit, since you're posting here.

And juggling is virtually limitless. As long as your button input is absolutely perfect with zero errors you can carry someone almost indefinitely. Which isn't common at all, but it is possible in the game's engine, so it has that potential.

If you're so worried about the community, explain this: Why do you want the skill gap to be BIGGER? Why do you want to keep the same small, isolated, competitive community rather than making the gameplay more variable, encouraging NEW players to enter and, more importantly, remain in the community? In this scenario, I think change is very much a good thing.

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And Lyonidus, please if your not going to use any thought in your arguments whatsoever don't post. So far every paragraph I've read from you has been so idiotic and unhelpful that your just spiraling this thread back around into circles, and the fact that you don't even realize it quite frankly is pissing me off.

Hey now, I'm still watching this thread. Don't make me send out any warnings, flaming is against the rules.

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