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R34P3R

Juggling, is it fair?

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So all games should be the same and follow the same rules? That seems a little boring to me but if that's how you like your games then I can't change your opinion.

Pikmin should follow Starcraft rules because they're both RTS games.

Uhh, no. That analogy doesn't work at all. Mainly because I never said anything about rules in a game. I was talking about how the communities of a genre accept something in them. Last I checked, there aren't any features that both Pikmin and Starcraft both share have that are complained about in one and not the other.

Keep grasping at straws and changing what people said to make a point, Balobo.

...I'm not changing what you're saying, changing your bullshit probably would help you more in the long run.

You're saying that, because other games have cheap combos, we should just accept this and refrain from doing anything that would prevent this game from being a mindless jugglefest. Essentially, you're implying all games should share flaws because the community for one game is exploiting that game's flaw.

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You can outsmart some jugglers but only to an extent. But guys like me wooty and imperfect cant be beaten by nonjugglers its not possible. This is because the best players out there in CC can juggle perfectly, move very well and easyly aviod any projectile, outsmart anyone even each other sometimes, and crush a nonjuggler in 30s or less. Unless you juggle you cant beat me in arena. When it happens then i will rethink what i said. I have lost to bad jugglers but never to a guy that magic spams and uses AA. Btw its easy to juggle a guy doing A-A. Like the same way you can juggle the bear tornading in the air. Its the same concept correct timing.

If the next update removes the ability to juggle like that in arena you might want to rethink your strategy. Dan already stated before that he was thinking about changing it.

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It kind of surprises me that this is even being debated. Let's start with the basics. Is it fair? Of course. Every person who plays the game has the "ability" to juggle, it's just a matter of whether or not they actually know how to do it. Juggling doesn't require a special controller to do. It doesn't require any mods or hacks. It's something that is possible through normal gameplay, thus rendering it a fair tactic.

Moving on from there, could juggling be considered "cheap?" Not really. Juggling requires a lot of skill, and typically something that is considered to be "cheap" does not.

Juggling, IMO, adds something very important to CC. It adds a skill gap. For anyone here who plays games competitively, you know that a high skill gap is incredibly important. Skill gap, for those of you who don't know, is the difference of "skill" between the worst players and the best players. Games like CC have a HUGE skill gap because of juggling. A new player has basically no chance of beating a player who can juggle well. That, from the eyes of a competitive gamer, is a good thing.

However, I'll admit that juggling hurts the CC multiplayer community. New players don't want to play a game where they get dominated without a fight. Honestly, the arena would be better if there was no juggling because more people would play. That being said, I personally enjoy juggling because it widens the skill gap.

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The only way to get an un-biased opinion is to bring in someone who hasnt played the game.

It would be unbiased, but it would be much too uneducated.

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The best opinions would probably be Dan and Tom's opinions. They created the game, after all.

They dont use their profiles much though.. but i see ur point

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Isn't it the community however, that decides what a game becomes in the end? Obviously we are limited to what the programming allows, but the players shape their own gaming experience. If the player decides to learn as much as they can about a game and practice until they fully understand its inner workings, more power to them. If the player simply wants to pick up a game every once in a while and relax with it, more power to them as well; just don't get pissed when there are people that are better at the game.

I agree with Love Slice on the importance of a skill gap. Without the said skill gap, why would anyone really practice and work hard at the game? Sure you practiced and practiced, but in the end someone that is playing the game for the first time is just as likely to win... that, my friends would be "cheap"; not like a legitimate skill such as juggling- a skill that anyone could learn given enough time and perseverance.

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Guest OctaviusZarda

I surprisingly made it to the Top 24 round of the ToC without being able to juggle...and then proceeded to get owned by Imperfect Luck. The point is that for me, since then I have been teaching myself how to juggle just so I can keep up with the top Arena players of this great game. Regardless if it's fair or not, you should still attempt to learn it.

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If somebody doesn't know how to juggle and the other doesn't, that isn't fair. Most of the time I'm on CC, I see a lot of newbies. The jugglers are beating up the newbies, which I don't appreciate. The only way I know newbies will get points is if they battle other newbies. I know that even if Dan increases the gravity, another n00b will find another cheap method. The only way I can learn how to juggle is if someone teaches me. Whenever I ask for someone to help, they always don't respond.

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I didn't get any explanations on how to juggle either. I watched the ToC highlights and mostly figured it out from that. From there I got it down playing lots and lots of insane mode; Lava world is great for juggle practice.

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This is getting tiring. I'd love to see somebody respectfully put up an argument against the points given by Love Slice and halfcoordinated. Otherwise stop circling around in theory's that have already been broken.

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If somebody doesn't know how to juggle and the other doesn't, that isn't fair. Most of the time I'm on CC, I see a lot of newbies. The jugglers are beating up the newbies, which I don't appreciate. The only way I know newbies will get points is if they battle other newbies. I know that even if Dan increases the gravity, another n00b will find another cheap method. The only way I can learn how to juggle is if someone teaches me. Whenever I ask for someone to help, they always don't respond.

So basically, you're saying that every sport/video game in existence is unfair because some players are more skilled than others? You're not using any logic. We don't live in a world where everyone is a clone of one another. Obviously some people are going to be better than others. Since juggling is a skill that ANY person has the ability to learn, it is a fair method.

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If somebody doesn't know how to juggle and the other doesn't, that isn't fair. Most of the time I'm on CC, I see a lot of newbies. The jugglers are beating up the newbies, which I don't appreciate. The only way I know newbies will get points is if they battle other newbies. I know that even if Dan increases the gravity, another n00b will find another cheap method. The only way I can learn how to juggle is if someone teaches me. Whenever I ask for someone to help, they always don't respond.
So basically, you're saying that every sport/video game in existence is unfair because some players are more skilled than others?

Nope. I'm only talking about CC.

You're not using any logic.

Yes I am. I think you're just not picking up on it.

Since juggling is a skill that ANY person has the ability to learn, it is a fair method.

This is not automatically true...

I'm trying to "LEARN THE SKILL!" You know, I ask for tips from jugglers. e.g:What weapon should I use? What is the combo? What character should I use? And all of these other questions. When I ask jugglers, do you know what I get? No response. That's unfair to me, so I say that juggling is unfair. It's garbage to me. :cry::(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:cry:

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Fenix's Guide to Everything Melee

Also, This video on Otto's channel should help

Neither of these however mention the xyxyxyxyxy finish that you see particularly in the arena. To do this, wait until you've started to drop from the top of the screen (after three xyy's) and then do each xy with a slight pause in-between each.

There. You've been helped. Now go learn.

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i honestly think it's fair. for sakes because if you know how to that you got skill, if you dont that you need to play more and start learning how to, it is YOUR fault that you dont know how to juggle, and for the people who say it isnt fair their WRONG.

Sometimes you have to learn how to do things such as "juggling enemies"

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i am ratherly on both sides, Fair or unfair. if you go to a knight and juggle them once, and if you dont kill them and if you see that their not juggling YOU. DONT juggle, otherwise that would be unfair. on the other hand if you fight a knight who CAN juggle its simply fair.

So it is practicly unfair because there is alot of people in the world that actaully cant juggle enemies. :D

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i am ratherly on both sides, Fair or unfair. if you go to a knight and juggle them once, and if you dont kill them and if you see that their not juggling YOU. DONT juggle, otherwise that would be unfair. on the other hand if you fight a knight who CAN juggle its simply fair.

So it is practicly unfair because there is alot of people in the world that actaully cant juggle enemies. :D

This is true.

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Fenix's Guide to Everything Melee

Also, This video on Otto's channel should help

Neither of these however mention the xyxyxyxyxy finish that you see particularly in the arena. To do this, wait until you've started to drop from the top of the screen (after three xyy's) and then do each xy with a slight pause in-between each.

There. You've been helped. Now go learn.

i wouldn't recommend xyxyxy on the way down on insane mode,perhaps yes on a 1v1.if you do this combo with a group of fire demons,especially snakeys you'll be dead before you hit the ground.therefore i personally never use it.

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i wouldn't recommend xyxyxy on the way down on insane mode,perhaps yes on a 1v1.if you do this combo with a group of fire demons,especially snakeys you'll be dead before you hit the ground.therefore i personally never use it.

I figured it was either that or maybe that it might do less hits per minute.

In that case though, I use this when I fight middleweights on insane mode and I don't get hit by the bystanders. If you juggle the one that is "chasing" you the others should be patient enough for you to dodge vertically. Even if you got one of the other enemies in your juggle, just xy a few times instead of all the way down.

Not doing the xy finish is definitely the safer option I suppose, as you don't have to pay attention to as much to avoid hits.

Sorry for going a bit off-topic.

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i wouldn't recommend xyxyxy on the way down on insane mode,perhaps yes on a 1v1.if you do this combo with a group of fire demons,especially snakeys you'll be dead before you hit the ground.therefore i personally never use it.

I figured it was either that or maybe that it might do less hits per minute.

In that case though, I use this when I fight middleweights on insane mode and I don't get hit by the bystanders. If you juggle the one that is "chasing" you the others should be patient enough for you to dodge vertically. Even if you got one of the other enemies in your juggle, just xy a few times instead of all the way down.

Not doing the xy finish is definitely the safer option I suppose, as you don't have to pay attention to as much to avoid hits.

Sorry for going a bit off-topic.

i used to xyxyxy on the way down on fire demons cos it normally catches a byestander for another juggle,but gave up using it after facing the snakeys on the marsh,they spam the sword swipe takin you out of the air if you're low enough. a+x y is my normal arena type juggle startup for those guys,if you jump n miss....its game over,v risky.

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