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daikonboy101

What Happened To Games

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I've been playing games since I was 2 or 3, and I've realised that games are becoming, well, not so challenging . There are some diamonds in the rough such as Donkey Kong Country Returns, and the later levels in Rayman Origins, but nothing compares to the good ol' days with Gunstar Heroes and Vectorman or the original Ratchet and Clank.

Has anyone else realise this?

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There are still hard games, it's just that the more popular licenses nowadays want to cater towards more casual, inexperimentated gamers.

There are still hard games out there for those who want them. Meat boy, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Dark Souls...

You just need to know where it's at. Pirating games is a solution, but the best way to find what suits you is to ask friends, and borrow games from them.

As a rule of thumb you can find good games on /v/, but I wouldn't exactly advise it, with the site being quite graphic at times and potentially offensive.

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[Disclaimer: following post may be seen as ranting]

yeah there are a lot of people who agree with you, right now the games are targeted towards the casual player. The casual player mainly wants to kill time whereas the gamer wants a challenge, a couple of the newer games and quite a lot of indies are a bit more directed towards challenge seeking gamers. The indie games have an actual challenge whereas the more well known games have for instance "hardcore/insane/nightmare" mode. To challenge seekers those modes can be seen as normal difficulty.

I on the other hand find myself inbetween those two groups because I try to get as much lore and story behind the games as possible, while in games without much story and dialogue I'll play on the "hard" (which isn't really that hard) difficulty. lately if you look at the different difficulties in games and compare it to old games you can view it like this:

difficulties now - difficulties back in the day

Extra hard mode/insane etc.. - Hard mode

Hard mode - Normal mode

Normal mode - Easy mode

Easy mode - Are you kidding me, is this god-mode or something???!!!! mode

But yeah that's just my opinion.

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Just going to give my two cents and say pretty much what Scarabix said: modern games are aimed towards people new to video games. Most games that are difficult don't get praised as much nowadays because they're not CoD. I, for one, look for the hardest games out there and try to beat them. I got the I'm A Golden God achievement in Super Meat Boy in a little over a week after buying the game. I was that dedicated. I played Dark Souls, and challenged myself to get every single weapons expert achievement in one playthrough. This resulted in over two weeks of grinding enemies for titanite slabs needed to upgrade weapons. It was a very difficult challenge, but when I accomplished it, I was able to finally relax. I love challenging games, and if I Wanna Be The Guy were an Arcade title, I would buy it in an instant. I prefer to play games like that on console rather than PC.

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I can't play difficult games because I suck at games even though it's my favorite thing to do in the whole world.

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I will have to agree. I have especially seen this in Sonic games the more I played them. I thought that Sonic Heroes was hard, but Sonic Generations was really easy. I really hope Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed has some really hard tracks.

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I will have to agree. I have especially seen this in Sonic games the more I played them. I thought that Sonic Heroes was hard, but Sonic Generations was really easy. I really hope Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed has some really hard tracks.

Sonic Heroes was unfairly difficult in my opinion, for a Sonic game anyway. I'm a bit embarrassed to say I can't beat that game with any team besides Rose. Sonic Adventure 2 was the perfect balance of difficulty versus accesibility, I really liked the balance of Generations though, with the exception of the completely random difficulty spike on Planet Wisp and the final boss...

I find as long as the game has a difficulty select then I won't have a problem.

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I can't play difficult games because I suck at games even though it's my favorite thing to do in the whole world.

, then said the person who finished the binding of isaac

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I'd have to disagree. From what I've seen, people always seem to see games from their childhood as the hardest or best. You could say it was the perfect difficulty during the PS2/GCN gen, but I've heard others say it was the PS1/N64 gen. Most of the time, though, I hear people saying the NES gen was the hardest.

Difficulty is both overrated and misinterpreted today. Not to say there shouldn't be any difficulty. If your game is marketed as 'hardcore' or 'mature' (Assassin's Creed, God of War, etc.), I had better get torn to pieces while playing. And I'm not talking about any cheap arcade deaths, either. Every single death, loss, or failure should be my fault, rather than the game's desperate attempt at killing me to make itself look like a challenge. I could get killed 50 times throughout a single level, doesn't make a difference if most of those deaths were because of bad camera angles, a random factor, or a lack of communication on the game's part. Sure, I got killed by that landmine, but if there was no way for me to know it was there, how was it my fault? At that point the game is more frustrating than it is difficult, killing me every few minutes as if to interrupt my game to say "ISN'T THIS SUCH A CHALLENGE!?" If a game's difficulty is completely dependant on trial and error, while the gameplay isn't, it's not a hard game, it's just a frustrating game that tries to trick me into thinking it's hard. For example, Dragon's Lair is 100% trial and error, but that's what the game is about, so it's totally fine. Uncharted is a climby-shooter, and while I experienced a whole bunch of fair deaths, there were times where I'd die and go "OH COME ON HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO AVOID/KNOW THAT!?" It's not what I'm playing it for.

Are games easier than they used to be? Maybe, but that's not particularly a bad thing. NES games, for instance, were only as hard as they were because the games themselves were about 3 or 4 hours long, and the developers needed them to last as long as possible. And people can glorify NES games all they want, but games like the original Zelda and Metroid were riddled with cheap deaths and time-wasting strategies. Games can be fun without particularly adding some crazy difficulty factor. Games like Skyward Sword, No More Heroes, and heck, even Castle Crashers, aren't that difficult, but they still provide great, genuine challenges without trying to trick me into dying for an imaginary 'challenge factor.'

This is pretty much the reason I never got back into games like God of War or Modern Warfare. I can't enjoy an easy game that continuously tries to convince me that it's hard. If the game can't kill me without pulling a cheap trick out if its hat, how am I supposed to know that I'm getting better at it?

As for difficulty settings? I hate hate HATE difficulty settings, and not for the reason Koen stated. Difficulty settings are like a game's wildcard to any "this game is too easy" remarks. What's that? You got past the first four levels without shooting once? Well, that's your fault, you should have chosen hard mode. I can't even count the number of times I'll be talking about Halo to a friend, and I'll bring up a friendly remark, like how babies only have rattles because Halo was too easy for them. Then they'll say something like "Hoh yeah? Well, I bet you can't beat Halo on Legendary! Because Legendary is so hard and only requires TRUE SKILL!"

No, I can't take it. That's no excuse for a game's normal mode to be easy as pants. You could take any game in the world and beef up the enemy health and strength tenfold, it doesn't make the game any more special. I'm not just going to look at the game's difficulty mode and guess which mode is right for me. I'm going to go normal, and if it turns out to be a bunch of easy garbage, I'll stop playing the game and forever dismiss it as casual fodder. I don't care how closed-minded it makes me look, I cannot stand a game that relies on tricking a bad player into thinking they're good.

Which brings me to the prime reason I hate difficulty settings. It's the easiest way for a game to tell you that it doesn't care about teaching the player. Teaching the player to play your game, and helping the player to improve their skills with your game are extremely important for a good experience. I need to know that I'm actually getting better at the game, and I need to know that I'm earning my progress.

This does not work when I frequently catch the game sneaking in cheap deaths, and when the game asks me how good I am at it. Nintendo games are great at not doing this. God of War is NOT a hard game, so why does it need to ask me how good I am at it, while Mario Galaxy and DKC Returns don't? It's because Super Mario Galaxy knows how to teach players to improve. It goes from easy to hard, all in one playthrough, rather than chopping the difficulty up into different 'modes.' It tells me that the God of War devs can't teach a player to get better at their own game, so they have to split it up into different difficulties so that they can get away with not teaching the player.

I whipped up a little graph to kinda highlight my thoughts here:

0R0cQ.png

A game with difficulty modes will have an easy mode (blue line), normal mode (red line), and hard mode (green line), while a game without difficulty modes will have to follow the route of the purple line. A game with difficulty modes asks the player how good they are at the game, so that they can balance the game accordingly. They don't have to worry about teaching the player, they just give them easier enemies to fight. A game with no difficulty mode is forced to teach new players and challenge veteran players, all in the same playthrough, with the same difficulty for everybody. Nintendo does this. Super Mario Galaxy is fairly challenging for me, but a 10-year old can beat it too, because Nintendo taught that kid to be as good as I am.

THAT'S what I want to see in a game. I want to see game developers who can teach players to be good, rather than tricking them into thinking they're good. Having a difficulty setting just tells me that the game's designer doesn't know how to teach an 'easy mode' player into being a 'hard mode' player, which is part of what game design is about in the first place.

Anyway, I had a lot of rambling in this post, and I don't really have time to proofread it. I'm going to bed. :-P I'm thinking of starting up a gaming blog, though. Since I can't seem to shut up about this kinda stuff.

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>Implying super mario galaxy has any difficulty at all

Artificial difficulty is not an actual thing. Imposing restraints on the player (confined spaces, scarce ammunition, scant health) is an absolutely valid way to add difficulty to a game.

What's difficulty? difficulty, is that tiny little time window during which you can kill drake in the last mission of nightfire. difficulty is two demons jumping at you at an unexpected time. difficulty, is gurdy junior bouncing at high velocity in a tight room that has you cornered.

What can be considered cheap and what can't?

Is a room filled with cacodemons cheap?

Is the dark world cotton alley cheap?

Is a plan of oblivion cheap?

Who am I to judge what is cheap and what isn't?

Where is the line between cheap and okay?

It's not an easy thing to apprehend. Maybe those cummulated, "cheap" hazards are here to dissuade youfrom going into certain spots that could be considered "cheap" for the player to use.

Now that purple line you brought up. It's the learning curve. It's THIS you have to take in consideration when judging what is cheap and what isn't

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I always liked Monster Hunter's difficulty. While it starts out incredibly difficult, as you learn the patterns of the game and recieve better equipment the game gets easier. I always thought games that challenge you to learn the patterns of it were much more fair in terms of difficulty then harasing your life bar or just sending a horde of enemies every few feet.

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Is the dark world cotton alley cheap?

Dark world Cotten Alley isn't cheap, it's fun as hell. Best raging I've had in quite a long time.

And why, may I ask?

Because it's at the tip of the purple line! It's as far as the learning curve goes! You don't get any higher! Final challenge! Remix 10! Final destination! Androbot! Judgemaster challenge! blue baby fight! Mewtwo! Dagoth Ur!

You can't go higher than that! It's not cheap, it's just the final challenge!

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Is the dark world cotton alley cheap?

Dark world Cotten Alley isn't cheap, it's fun as hell. Best raging I've had in quite a long time.

And why, may I ask?

Because it's at the tip of the purple line! It's as far as the learning curve goes! You don't get any higher! Final challenge! Remix 10! Final destination! Androbot! Judgemaster challenge! blue baby fight! Mewtwo! Dagoth Ur!

You can't go higher than that! It's not cheap, it's just the final challenge!

Thou shall not speak of that name.

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NES/SMS or SNES/GEN.

Play the real Super Mario 2 (aka the lost levels not the resprited Doki Doki Panic...) THAT is a challenge.

I still remember being a kid how me and my best friend at the time got together every day to eat snacks and scream at each other for getting the slightest thing wrong in Battletoads XD

If you look at Sonic 1 for the Gen, Labyrinth Zone in particular, then compare it to the newer games.. its SO MUCH HARDER.

I also wanna point out I find Many of my fave games I loved for the game style and game play all became 3d plat formers.

Super Mario game style seen in SMB1-3+world died when SM64 hit and until NewSMB.

Legend of Zelda died with Ocarina of time, Imo Link to the Past is still the best LoZ ever made.

Metriod, is another one, Sonic is another... I like 3D but they are all the same easy 3d platformer with a gimmick and a theme.

I also hate how both SEGA and Nintendo revamped lore.

Bowser and Peach instead of King Koopa and Princess Toadstool? yeah no thank you...

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I'd have to disagree. From what I've seen, people always seem to see games from their childhood as the hardest or best. You could say it was the perfect difficulty during the PS2/GCN gen, but I've heard others say it was the PS1/N64 gen. Most of the time, though, I hear people saying the NES gen was the hardest. Difficulty is both overrated and misinterpreted today. Not to say there shouldn't be any difficulty. If your game is marketed as 'hardcore' or 'mature' (Assassin's Creed, God of War, etc.), I had better get torn to pieces while playing. And I'm not talking about any cheap arcade deaths, either. Every single death, loss, or failure should be my fault, rather than the game's desperate attempt at killing me to make itself look like a challenge. I could get killed 50 times throughout a single level, doesn't make a difference if most of those deaths were because of bad camera angles, a random factor, or a lack of communication on the game's part. Sure, I got killed by that landmine, but if there was no way for me to know it was there, how was it my fault? At that point the game is more frustrating than it is difficult, killing me every few minutes as if to interrupt my game to say "ISN'T THIS SUCH A CHALLENGE!?" If a game's difficulty is completely dependant on trial and error, while the gameplay isn't, it's not a hard game, it's just a frustrating game that tries to trick me into thinking it's hard. For example, Dragon's Lair is 100% trial and error, but that's what the game is about, so it's totally fine. Uncharted is a climby-shooter, and while I experienced a whole bunch of fair deaths, there were times where I'd die and go "OH COME ON HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO AVOID/KNOW THAT!?" It's not what I'm playing it for. Are games easier than they used to be? Maybe, but that's not particularly a bad thing. NES games, for instance, were only as hard as they were because the games themselves were about 3 or 4 hours long, and the developers needed them to last as long as possible. And people can glorify NES games all they want, but games like the original Zelda and Metroid were riddled with cheap deaths and time-wasting strategies. Games can be fun without particularly adding some crazy difficulty factor. Games like Skyward Sword, No More Heroes, and heck, even Castle Crashers, aren't that difficult, but they still provide great, genuine challenges without trying to trick me into dying for an imaginary 'challenge factor.' This is pretty much the reason I never got back into games like God of War or Modern Warfare. I can't enjoy an easy game that continuously tries to convince me that it's hard. If the game can't kill me without pulling a cheap trick out if its hat, how am I supposed to know that I'm getting better at it? As for difficulty settings? I hate hate HATE difficulty settings, and not for the reason Koen stated. Difficulty settings are like a game's wildcard to any "this game is too easy" remarks. What's that? You got past the first four levels without shooting once? Well, that's your fault, you should have chosen hard mode. I can't even count the number of times I'll be talking about Halo to a friend, and I'll bring up a friendly remark, like how babies only have rattles because Halo was too easy for them. Then they'll say something like "Hoh yeah? Well, I bet you can't beat Halo on Legendary! Because Legendary is so hard and only requires TRUE SKILL!" No, I can't take it. That's no excuse for a game's normal mode to be easy as pants. You could take any game in the world and beef up the enemy health and strength tenfold, it doesn't make the game any more special. I'm not just going to look at the game's difficulty mode and guess which mode is right for me. I'm going to go normal, and if it turns out to be a bunch of easy garbage, I'll stop playing the game and forever dismiss it as casual fodder. I don't care how closed-minded it makes me look, I cannot stand a game that relies on tricking a bad player into thinking they're good. Which brings me to the prime reason I hate difficulty settings. It's the easiest way for a game to tell you that it doesn't care about teaching the player. Teaching the player to play your game, and helping the player to improve their skills with your game are extremely important for a good experience. I need to know that I'm actually getting better at the game, and I need to know that I'm earning my progress. This does not work when I frequently catch the game sneaking in cheap deaths, and when the game asks me how good I am at it. Nintendo games are great at not doing this. God of War is NOT a hard game, so why does it need to ask me how good I am at it, while Mario Galaxy and DKC Returns don't? It's because Super Mario Galaxy knows how to teach players to improve. It goes from easy to hard, all in one playthrough, rather than chopping the difficulty up into different 'modes.' It tells me that the God of War devs can't teach a player to get better at their own game, so they have to split it up into different difficulties so that they can get away with not teaching the player. I whipped up a little graph to kinda highlight my thoughts here:

0R0cQ.png

A game with difficulty modes will have an easy mode (blue line), normal mode (red line), and hard mode (green line), while a game without difficulty modes will have to follow the route of the purple line. A game with difficulty modes asks the player how good they are at the game, so that they can balance the game accordingly. They don't have to worry about teaching the player, they just give them easier enemies to fight. A game with no difficulty mode is forced to teach new players and challenge veteran players, all in the same playthrough, with the same difficulty for everybody. Nintendo does this. Super Mario Galaxy is fairly challenging for me, but a 10-year old can beat it too, because Nintendo taught that kid to be as good as I am. THAT'S what I want to see in a game. I want to see game developers who can teach players to be good, rather than tricking them into thinking they're good. Having a difficulty setting just tells me that the game's designer doesn't know how to teach an 'easy mode' player into being a 'hard mode' player, which is part of what game design is about in the first place. Anyway, I had a lot of rambling in this post, and I don't really have time to proofread it. I'm going to bed. :-P I'm thinking of starting up a gaming blog, though. Since I can't seem to shut up about this kinda stuff.

Well said and thought out. I've never actually thought about the difficulty system in games this way. I've never had a problem with choosing your own difficulty but I've always had an issue with poor mechanics or controls which make or break a game for me.

As for the OP complaining of challenge now adays all it is is practice and repition for you to become good at video games. My 6 year old cousin was able to play Halo 3, Gears of War 2, and CoD 4 online and stand toe to toe in matches and at times even did better than myself or his older brother on the score board.

Is a game suppose to be outragously difficult for you to have fun or kill time? They may have gotten easier but they've certainly gotten more complex. Once upon a time all games were was a test of reflex and timing in the face of increasing danger. Now they have story and characters on par with Hollywood movies in some cases. The genre of game will also have an impact on how and what kind of challenge you face while playing.

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Is a game suppose to be outrageously difficult for you to have fun or kill time? They may have gotten easier but they've certainly gotten more complex. Once upon a time all games were was a test of reflex and timing in the face of increasing danger. Now they have story and characters on par with Hollywood movies in some cases. The genre of game will also have an impact on how and what kind of challenge you face while playing.

This is not true. Games used to be at least as complex as they are today. They had you thinking farther out of the box.

Take Doom, one of the first FPSes, and the first that used a Z-axis. To find the secrets you sometimes needed, all you had to help you was your sense of observation, and skill. And as you found secrets levels, the game became harder by itself, adapting to you.

This was true, again with Lylat Wars, that would let the more experienced players into new areas of the game, to an alternate ending according according to their performance.

I think Lylat wars is as good as it gets in terms of difficulty. The learning curve might be a bit stiff, but you're always in good hands.

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NES/SMS or SNES/GEN. Play the real Super Mario 2 (aka the lost levels not the resprited Doki Doki Panic...) THAT is a challenge.

I'll tell you a challange, that god damn jump man thing you have to do in DK64 to get one of the two Nintendo coins, Swear to god, I was about to kill myself.

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Thanks for the replies, I definitely got more to add to this, but it'll have to wait a few days. Got a lotta work to do. :-(

Just letting you know I'm not ignoring your reply, Scarabix.

I'll be going now

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Thanks for the replies, I definitely got more to add to this, but it'll have to wait a few days. Got a lotta work to do. :-(

Just letting you know I'm not ignoring your reply, Scarabix.

I'll be going now

Scarabix, I think he tried to hide his true feelings for you.

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Thanks for the replies, I definitely got more to add to this, but it'll have to wait a few days. Got a lotta work to do. :-(

Just letting you know I'm not ignoring your reply, Scarabix.

I'll be going now

Scarabix, I think he tried to hide his true feelings for you.

He can try all he wants, but I know his feels.

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I actually just 100%ed Gunstar Heroes last week XD

I hear ya dude. It's because there is no patience anymore.

It's all 30 mins of cut scenes, auto save, 5 minute playtime, checkpoint, and hour of cut scenes and the game is over.

No appreciation anymore. It blows =/

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I actually just 100%ed Gunstar Heroes last week XD

I hear ya dude. It's because there is no patience anymore.

It's all 30 mins of cut scenes, auto save, 5 minute playtime, checkpoint, and hour of cut scenes and the game is over.

No appreciation anymore. It blows =/

It's like I'm really playing metal gear solid 4

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